Heaven help the non-Christian
Published 1 year, 8 months ago in My life.Some time ago I read that the dead outnumber the living by about 20 to 1. If there is a Heaven it must be pretty crowded by now. Just try to imagine the entire population of, say, China and India. Multiply this by 20 and add a few billion more. Now, try to get in the queue for a cup of coffee.
I chose those two countries because of their high populations, not their majority religions. I assume if you are a Christian you would expect these people to re-appear in Heaven despite being non-Christian, after all, they’ve done nothing wrong.
And imagine their surprise! Instead of being greeted by little bald-headed fat guy or an elephant with four human arms they are suddenly confronted by a guy with a beard and a long white robe. And that’s just Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates.
What if the Christians have got it wrong? How would they feel meeting the multi-limbed Vishnu. Probably think they had gone straight to Hell!
Bit of a gamble this religion thing. How do you know you’ve backed the right one?
Eddie: “Ask the audience”. Tricky, one third go for Christianity but that’s in all it’s forms and we all know how well the Catholics and the Protestants get on. It’s the same with the next lot - Islam, Shiite versus Sunni all the way to the mosque.
Perhaps the followers of Wicca are the only ones to get it right ? “An it harm none, do what you will.”
61 Responses to “Heaven help the non-Christian”
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God understands.
As long as you have asked yourself, and truly believe in God and in Jesus, and do your best to do the right thing and get to know him, then why wouldn’t he let you into heaven? There are so many Christian denominations because God understands that we humans aren’t all the same, and seek different forms of worship and understanding of him.
The other day, I asked myself, if I knew that God wouldn’t let me into heaven, would I still act as a Christian? Would I still try to do the right thing, read the bible, pray, etc?
At first I thought, “No, if God is so unkind, why should I?” And then I realised that being a Christian and believing in God isn’t about “what I have to do to get into heaven”… for having God in my life is valuable NOW… even if I don’t get into heaven, life on earth is always better with God in it. He is my friend, he is there for me, I have proof in my life that he exists (and I do question my beliefs often), and whether or not others believe me is of no consequence.
God is merciful… he is fair. He will judge non-Christians who haven’t heard the gospel much less harshly than those who have. But knowing God isn’t about being “judged”… it’s about a wonderful relationship with a guy who loved us enough to allow his own son to take the punishment for the things that we have done wrong.
yeah , thats a good point … what would anger the real god more….
a) not praying to him
b) praying to someone else
and … it the JEhovas witnesses are right , come judgement day all the dead will rise…
its gunna get plenty crowded !
Although lets not forget , christianity has a penchant for zombies…
Jesus was a Zombie…..
what if we just come back here as someone/something else like some religions beleive? then the population thing doesn’t really matter because everyone is just being ‘recycled’. (recycling may have been going on from the beginning and we humans have only become aware of it over recent years.)
well , lyni , its an interesting idea , but im yet to be convinced.
more importantly how many bins does god have ?
yellow - for recycling
green- for greenie waste..
and red - for just plain human trash.
If god was such a nice guy lady chaos , why DOES he give children cancer?
for their parents sins?
for his ?
to build CHARACTER?
if there was a god (despte the lack of ANY evidence) He is a vicious and vengeful jealous god , and not the sort i would want to worship.
Its also interesting lady chaos , that you feel you have proof within your own life on the existence of god , something that NO ONE else in the world of science has.
now , if you were the only person who thought this way , then you would be an insane person , however since there are many others who also think like you , contrary to any proof, then its ok , …..
The world does not promote ignorance in any other form … except religion , where IGNORANCE is counted first and foremost.
Lady , if you are as you say always testing your faith , i would be glad to send you a free copy of the richard dawkins book if you are interested in reading it , its not the be all to end all on the subject , but its a start , shoot me an email at the addy listed on my nook.
Hi ackbar, how many times are you going to say the same things over and over? I thought the thing about faith was that it involved an act of trust, a belief that can’t necessarily be substantiated by conventional means. I am not religious but I respect people’s rights to believe what they want to believe (and judging by how many extremely intelligent and capable people do have faith, then maybe you and I as non believers are the fools), as long as they don’t ram it down my throat. You my friend are ramming your views down all of our throats and the holier than thou attitude that comes with it is a little ironic, don’t you think?
ackbar is, in some measure, correct. As a six-year-old I prayed that I would see my sister again. I prayed so loudly that it consumed my mind but it did not drown out the sound of the axe. Since then I have not been bothered by any consideration of deity, other than to recognise how my own modest predations pale beside those of God, who is in irony matchless and in wanton malice beyond measure.
I wasn’t questioning his logic, just growing a little tired of the boorish approach of those apparently desperate to enlighten the believers on this site. What’s wrong with a little respect and a degree of consideration?
ackbar…
years ago someone once said a really interesting thing to me..
“you can’t hate god and not believe in him at the same time!….
think about that…
Ackbar…
“NO ONE else in the world of science” eh?
Now how “insane” does that sound? After all, there are MANY Christian (and other religious) scientists, who have all different viewpoints on all sorts of things and study all different fields (e.g. not all Christian scientists believe that God literally created the world in 7 days and spend their entire lives trying to prove it, as the vocal ones may have you believe). The arguments for and against the existence of God are many on both sides, and both sides seem to ignore the other. You see the idea of the existence of God being scientifically proven as something absurd and impossible… just as hundreds of years ago we would have seen the idea of computers, rockets, microscopes and genetic engineering as absurd and impossible. While it is certainly good to be strong in your beliefs, it is also worth having the door of your mind open just a crack.
As for the point on children with cancer, it is like I’ve said before… why would a person want to have a real child who throws tantrums, gets sick and grows up into an ungrateful teen who dies in a car crash at age 20? Why not just buy a doll where you pull a string and it says “I love you”?
If God had wanted a disease-free world filled with happy, good angels that worshipped him all the time and never got sick, hurt or died, then that’s what he’d have… but where’s the meaning in that? The world is not perfect… there is risk, pain and bad things mixed in with all the good things, and yes, sometimes life is unfair, especially where children with cancer are concerned. But diseases are not always “God’s punishments” for things. They are part of life and life is not perfect nor is it just, and bad things that happen are not always fair. It is arrogant to think that we can just ask God to fix everything wrong with our lives. He is not a “trust fund” of goodwill there to simply take away all the bad things that happen to people; but to make life bearable, purposeful and enjoyable despite the seemingly cruel and unfair occurrences. Life is not just, but God is.
I don’t expect others to understand why I believe in God, and I don’t want to push my experiences on them and claim that I have perfect knowledge of our divine creator when I am still learning, because everyone experiences God in different ways. Perhaps I am “insane”… despite my lack of any symptoms of schizophrenia or other delusional illnesses. All’s I know’s is that from what I have experienced there is no question that God exists, he proves his existence to me every single day, and when I do manage to find a question on his existence, fairness, or the Bible’s accuracy, there is always an answer, or at least, a sizeable hole in the question.
And, much as I dislike most non-fiction books (I have about thirty centimetres of genetics and psychology textbooks to get through in six months *sigh*), I’d be glad to take you up on that kind offer of the free book… (seriously though, you don’t have to waste your money, tell me the title and I’ll try to find it in the uni library).
I am always open to hearing other viewpoints.
solomon ,
more things i have said over and over is that personal belief is fine except that it intrudes on NON-believers lives everyday , and more and more….. unless us NON-believers speak up.
90% of all of the TOP scientific minds of the USA are atheists. so maybe we are on the right side …
Ramming it down your throats would be going into threads of a non religious nature and saying these things…. that is not the case , is it …..
and lastly , RESPECT is something that religious beliefs are NOT deserved of.
As I said above , The world does not promote ignorance in any other form … except religion , where IGNORANCE is thought to be deserving of respect.
its a topsy turvey world.
DZLR ,
i dont hate what doesnt exist.
I dislike RELIGON , which DOES exist.
G’day Lady Chaos,
I know you said:
“I don’t expect others to understand why I believe in God, and I don’t want to push my experiences on them”
But when you make statements like:
“I have proof in my life that he exists (and I do question my beliefs often), and whether or not others believe me is of no consequence.”
“All’s I know’s is that from what I have experienced there is no question that God exists, he proves his existence to me every single day”
Well, of course people are going to want to know the proof that you have. It’s exactly the same as me saying, in a public forum, that:
I have Fairies at the bottom of my garden … I have proof that they exist … what’s that .. can I show them to you? No.
……………………………………………………………
Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
— Douglas Adams
Lady choas ,
my “NO ONE else in the world of science” was based on your mention of “I have proof in my life that he exists” ..
now it is a fact that no one in the world has proof of gods existence.
The sort of proof that you use for anything else you believe is true.
Im not talking about ideas or thoughts ,viewpoints or beliefs but Truth, fact .
I’m curious as to what you regard as PROOF in your life…..
and , yes i have strong thoughts on the subjects , but i will be the first one to change sides on any real proof of a gods existence.
PS the dawkins book “the god delusion ” was what i was talking about.
Oooops, sorry. I thought I was visiting hannahsgranpa. Has anyone seen hannahsgranpa? Ack, you didn’t eat hannahsgranpa did you? And why so many posts in a row, have you been talking to skyhooks about marketing techniques? Why am I talking to Ack, this isn’t ack’s nook. hannasgranpa are you there?
hehehehe
i hit post before i finish a thought thats my problem.
hannasgranpa is listening to his ipod…..
he is the strong silent type…
he . he …
likes to watch.
Bless you, my child. Yes, I’m still here. Just trying to get some nasty stains out of my surplice. And after that much altar wine I’m not getting up at 7 a.m. to answer banal comments.
The purpose of the post was to stimulate comment and discussion, which I believe should be one of the overall purposes of the Nook site.
I am quite prepared to state my views but I’m past the point where I would try to convince someone more intelligent than myself (and if they are less intelligent I see no reason to mold their views to mine).
I believe in the Karl Marx quotation: “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.”
I also believe in the Wiccan Rede, quoted in my original post. Perhaps tolerance is the nub of it. Some people are happy without religion, others simply cannot get through life without it.
As the Irish comedian Dave Allen was fond of saying: “May your God go with you”.
I congratulate you hannahsgranpa on the number of replies. Perhaps one last comment from Thomas Hardy on this theme.
THE BEDRIDDEN PEASANT
(TO AN UNKNOWING GOD)
Much wonder I–here long low-laid -
That this dead wall should be
Betwixt the Maker and the made,
Between Thyself and me!
For, say one puts a child to nurse,
He eyes it now and then
To know if better ’tis, or worse,
And if it mourn, and when.
But Thou, Lord, giv’st us men our day
In helpless bondage thus
To Time and Chance, and seem’st straightway
To think no more of us!
That some disaster cleft Thy scheme
And tore us wide apart,
So that no cry can cross, I deem;
For Thou art mild of heart,
And would’st not shape and shut us in
Where voice can not he heard:
‘Tis plain Thou meant’st that we should win
Thy succour by a word.
Might but Thy sense flash down the skies
Like man’s from clime to clime,
Thou would’st not let me agonize
Through my remaining time;
But, seeing how much Thy creatures bear -
Lame, starved, or maimed, or blind -
Thou’dst heal the ills with quickest care
Of me and all my kind.
Then, since Thou mak’st not these things be,
But these things dost not know,
I’ll praise Thee as were shown to me
The mercies Thou would’st show!
Well, only because you asked so nicely, Ozwebfx and Ackbar…
I hear God speak to me in a manner unlike a thought or a physical voice… more like a packet of information sent to my mind that appears suddenly when I pray and ask about things.
He explains things, answers questions, encourages me, and tells me, who hates to be wrong (as you can probably tell) when I’ve done something wrong in a way that somehow makes me feel okay about changing my behaviour in future. Nothing I have thought or could ever think, and nothing anyone has said compares to God’s calm, understanding logic. It is not human, nothing human could be like it.
I am not schizophrenic, nor have any other illnesses that would cause delusions or voices… (and plus, as I said, it isn’t an obtrusive, audible voice, but more what the Bible described as a “still, small voice”).
I don’t know if it’s scientifically quantifiable… I can’t say it is, I can’t say it’s not… I haven’t sat in a chair with electrodes on my head being tested with neurological equipment to see if anything out of the ordinary is happening.
But God does have conversations with me… to say otherwise would be to lie.
I have as many questions on the Bible’s seeming “inconsistencies” as any inquiring mind, but God always answers them for me in a way that I can back up with other passages in the Bible, or at least common sense.
Maybe it’s not proof enough for you, nor do I expect you to take my word for it. But it is proof enough for me… constant, unwavering, unfailing proof that has never let me down. Perhaps it’s not scientifically quantifiable. Perhaps it is. Maybe we just don’t have the technology available to quantify it yet, or we do and I just haven’t tried it.
Perhaps if you ask God a question he will answer? Maybe it will be in a different way to how he answers me? I don’t know. You can’t say it doesn’t work until you’ve tried it.
Or, using your metaphor, Ozwebfx, perhaps you have to actually go down to the bottom of the garden and sit there a while before you see the fairies, rather than standing around in the kitchen and talking about how they don’t exist.
Nice post lady ,very nice….
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on your thoughts with us….
the ONLY thing i will say about your post is that , you possibly need to give YOURSELF more credit in the situation.
I often ponder on qustions i dont have answers for , and then sometimes immediately sometimes not , i will get an idea , the religious would call it a “revelation” , yes i hadnt thought of it before , and yes its new , but its not the word of god.
maybe your way of thinking is just “different”.
one thing lady , can i ask how long you have heard this voice , and does it ONLY occur when you pray ?
I was looking at a definition of "proof"
I still don’t quite follow what proof you have?
You say,
“I have proof in my life that he exists (and I do question my beliefs often), and whether or not others believe me is of no consequence.”
"Maybe it’s not proof enough for you, nor do I expect you to take my word for it. But it is proof enough for me… constant, unwavering, unfailing proof that has never let me down."
I don’t think your explanation can in any way be called proof.
I’m now thinking of Joan of Arc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_arc#Visions
You haven’t been drinking unpasteurized milk have you?
:) Thanks Ackbar… I do know what you mean about the “revelations”. I have thought about whether or not God speaking to me is just my brain answering my own questions with moments of insight. Sure enough, sometimes I ponder things and figure them out for myself… occasionally discovering the answer suddenly, but that is very different to when God speaks to me. I know God’s voice is not my own mind because I am not thinking at the time, and just how he goes about explaining things is so different to how I would do it, or indeed anyone else I’ve met would do it. Although not everything God says to me is a sudden revelation about something deep… often it’s just like a conversation between friends, encouragement, suggestions etc.
Maybe you have to experience it to fully understand? I’m not sure… but it isn’t a random thing that just “happens when it happens”… I try to make time to listen to God every day, and if I’m listening, he will talk, even if just to say that I’m doing okay and not much else.
I can’t remember exactly the day I first listened and heard God speak… I think about four or five years ago. I was a Christian before then, but I doubt I would still have my beliefs without God speaking to me and helping to understand the Bible and how it is relevant now.
I wouldn’t just accept something as important as a religious faith on the basis of what it says in a book that seems somewhat dated… And the Bible, “God’s word”, is just words if you take God out of the equation.
It is hard to explain, hence my hesitation in trying to… when I am thinking about a question or problem (or even thinking about something completely different), I can suddenly stumble upon clever realisations. But when God speaks, I am hearing, rather than thinking… and I do have to pray and “listen” in order to hear. After all, someone can have a conversation with someone else, but if they aren’t listening to what is being said with their mind, i.e. they are thinking about other things, they don’t understand what is being said to them.
I know I am going to be lynched for this, but am going to say it anyway. I have it on pretty good authority (a Christian scholar told me)that reincarnation is not incompatible with Christianity…
And, on the general topic of heaven, i always remember what Don Chipp said on Enough Rope:
DON CHIPP: Uhm, I’m very conscious of death. Not because of me. I don’t mind. I could go tomorrow and I know if it’s heaven - if there is a heaven, I’ve got a reasonable chance of getting there, knocking on the door. I’ve got no chance of going to the other place, I don’t think. But I don’t altogether believe there is a place like that. I don’t care. I think it’s obscene the way some Christians do the right thing and not the wrong thing just to get a reward and it is obscene…
wonderwoman it is a pity that reincarnation life after death AND christianity itself , are incompatible will all the evidence we currently have.
I thinks its possible NOT possible to be a moral person if you live by the bible.
having you morals controlled by the threat of punishment means you are not excercising morals at all , and simply obeying commands….
interesting thought.
Reincarnation is not only possible but a fact of life. I have been compelled to reincarnate myself, in this life, several times in order to survive and expect to continue. As my colleague Dr Phil says ‘We all wear a social mask” but how we look on the outside is not important as long as what is on the inside does not change.
I’m sure “god” can afford to renovate and add more rooms for the newly dead. I’m sure he watches Trading Spaces for ideas on how to paint a feature wall.
ackbar: yes having your morals controlled by the threat of punishment is immoral; similar to what Don Chipp was saying - well, that’s my reading anyway. Not all Christians have their morals controlled by a threat or perceived threat of punishment.
thanks for CHIPing in wonder woman
I think that if you are christian you are thereby living by the ten commandments , then you are therefore living morally under threat.
so , i would say that all christians are immoral.
lol
ackbar: i think you say things to be provocative
love the recycle bins
Clearly Christians don’t just do what they do to avoid punishment.
Do children avoid stabbing their cat to death just so they won’t get in trouble from their parents?
No. It’s because Christians, atheists, pretty much most people are decent people and don’t like to hurt people or animals mentally or physically.
The Ten Commandments and the guidelines on how to live our life in the Bible are a helpful guideline to help us stay on track… and by on track, I mean a track that most people, no matter what their religion is, will try to follow anyway.
Take a peek at your own life, Ackbar, you’ll probably be surprised at how many of the rules in the Bible you are following.
I dont follow rules of the bible.
If my behavior happens to correlate it has nothing to do with the fact the writing is in the bible , but i understand what you are saying …
above , i was making a point.
so many christians say “without the bible where would your morals come from ” regardless of how naive and stupid this is , i believe it has even been said by a few of the religious types here on nook.
morals existed way before religion.
morals exist in those that know nothing of religion , animals of many sorts show altruistic tendancies.
if you are looking for moral guidance , the bible is the absolute WORST place to look , it is full of violence and atrocities, and sprinkled with a few useful tid bits..
And thats only if you choose to INTERPRET it the right way…
and lady what makes you think that “Clearly Christians don’t just do what they do to avoid punishment.”
This actually seems wrong in many cases where christians rely HEAVILY on the ten commandments..
As part of what im doing i have talked to christians who have stated very clearly that their religion is the only reason they dont break the ten commandments.
and obviously all the faith in the world , and all the bible study ever , doesnt keep people straight , look at the ted haggards and all the priest child molesters. This accompanied by the VERY LOW rates of crime among NON-believers , says to me , that religion is harmful to the moral fibre of society.
The Ideas that sins are forgiven by asking for forgiveness places a very low burden of responsibility on the people to uphold themselves, this in turn leads to religious minded people feeling that they can do whatever they like , and be forgiven by the “BIG MAN UPSTAIRS” this frees them to break MANS LAWS everyday , and then on the 7th day ask for forgiveness..
Of course there are corrupt Christians who 1. Misinterpret the guidelines in the Bible (e.g. violence… nowhere in the Bible have I found anything condoning violence that wasn’t an out-of-date custom that Jesus’ teaching didn’t make irrelevant, 2. Only try not to sin because they don’t want to go to hell, 3. Think that God’s forgiveness is some kind of miracle cure for a sin that they are not sorry for and have no intention to stop.
I never said there weren’t people like that. There are. There are in any faith, and yes, atheism too… look at the Colombine massacre, the guy asked a girl if she still believed in God, she said yes, he shot her… that’s not what atheism is about now, is it?
What I’m saying is that to believe in God and be a Christian, it doesn’t mean you have to live like the corrupted and misguided Christians out there. Those people would probably be antisocial and dangerous regardless of their religion… they hide behind Christianity as an excuse, and if it didn’t exist, they would find something else.
God forgives sins in a fair and perfectly understandable way. We say we’re sorry (and actually mean it), and that we won’t do it again (and we actually truthfully intend not to and try our best not to), he forgives us. Why not? Wouldn’t you forgive your kids if they did something wrong, you knew that they realised it was wrong and that they wished they’d never done it and intended never to do it again, and they said sorry? God makes sense. He’s not unreasonable or lax in discipline. He can read our minds, he knows who’s really sorry and who’s not.
And, according to Christianity, those who sin, the child molesters out there, will go to hell unless they truly repent, no matter what religious label they hide behind.
It is up to the individual… you are clever enough not to be a sheep, clever enough to think about what you believe and why you believe it, and you have a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong.
True faith in God is about all of these things. Don’t let the naughty children spoil your view of childhood. Make up your own mind on actual Christianity based on God, Jesus and the Bible rather than the scummy individuals who give it a bad name. The existance of such individuals is a weak and flimsy excuse for not finding out more about what Christianity is really about.
so its ok to molest kids , and be truly repentant and still go to heaven ?
is that right ?
so , if , in heaven it is pure bliss , does that mean the child molesters get to eternally molest? if thats their pure bliss?
and god makes sense?
as for the forgiveness of a child , im not threatening to torment them eternally if they dont repent I think you would appreciate its a little different ….
as for columbine , yes they did ask one of thegirls that question , and then shot her , they asked another the same question she answered yes and lived.
since you raised this , they came from VERY religious families … the same religious families that drove them to be mass murders…..
many of the video tapes of the two killers prior to the rampage conatin strong religious overtones..
Yes.
If someone was truly sorry, no matter what they did, then they are forgiven.
Because if they are truly sorry, it means they REGRET it.
Don’t you think EVERYONE deserves a second chance, even if they did something really bad that they regret?
People learn by making mistakes. Perhaps in your view of the world, a few mistakes and BANG that’s it, you’re a crappo scummy person who can never change… but in my view, people can change, do change, and deserve to be forgiven.
If a child molester REPENTED and God let them into heaven, it would mean that they DIDN’T want to molest children anymore because they knew the hurt it caused. That’s what repenting is. (Surely you didn’t need me to tell you that?)
Anyway, I doubt that heaven is like how they showed us it was on the Simpsons… (just doing what you want all the time). I think it’s pure bliss without having to do anything, just happiness and safety being close to God, in a perfect place without the worries of life, where evil and even just “unfortunate” doesn’t exist. Still, there’s probably plenty about it I don’t know.
There were many factors behind the Colombine killings… much more than just religious upbringing, e.g. bullying and personality disorders. And I know that strong religious upbringing can be harmful… anyone forcing anyone to believe anything is a pointless and dangerous endeavour. If someone isn’t going to believe it, they aren’t going to believe it, whether actively or passively. It’s ignorant of parents to think that just because they force their kids to go to church that they are Christians and believe in God.
… Hmmm, second thought, I should probably clarify that it is NEVER okay to molest kids, just that it is okay to forgive someone who is truly sorry for it, just in case anyone got the wrong idea about what I said.
yes but lady , saying the columbine killings were based on atheist beliefs is inherently wrong, actually 100% wrong.
Your whole take on repenting and sins is part of what im talking about with plenty of christians living sinful lives with the knowledge of instant forgiveness , it leads to an immoral life.
Now , the CHRISTIAN way would be to have the child molester repent , and then forgiven and back into society …….And we have seen what that does !
It has been shown many times how futile this is , the repenting and forgiveness are meaningless. Now you are going to say , it needs to be REAL repentence , well if the priest along with god cant tell then what chance have you got !
Now , Contrast this against the SCIENTIFIC view…
Modern views show that pedophilia is NOT curable.
So any repentance CANNOT be meaningful , the idea that homosexuality and pedophilia can be cured , is a myth , spread by churches.
Wow!!! you’ve done it again 41 responses you must be truly a God, perhaps? I’d better back you….. see you at the pearly gates!
You’re missing the point. Yes, there is repentance and forgiveness… but that is in the background to a loving relationship with God. It’s similar to friendship or even marriage… yes your wife will forgive you if you do something wrong, but because you love her, you really try to make her happy and not hurt her feelings. Because even if she forgives you, you seriously wish you hadn’t done whatever it was wrong.
I know that pedophilia is a mental illness that’s very difficult to cure, but it is not a hopeless story. I believe it can be cured, and perhaps in time the techniques for curing it will improve. Nothing is impossible, and even if it can’t be completely cured in someone, it can be managed.
I think that there is nowhere to turn for people who may experience sexual feelings towards children (something they may not be able to help). There are millions of gay and lesbian helplines, but where do you call if you have sexual feelings for kids and are terrified by the thought of what you may do one day, and want therapy?
Perhaps once people stop being outraged they’ll start to think sensibly about what can be done to stop sex offences against children rather than just punishing offenders.
Anyway, I’m not talking in terms of the law and pedophiles being released back into society. I know that that often has disastrous consequences. I mean heaven.
God understands… he understand the human mind and how mental illness can damage it. He is merciful and doesn’t expect the impossible from us. If someone tries their absolute best not to do something wrong (as ideally a true Christian would after they repent), what more could they have done? From any perspective, what more?
for a start pedophilia is seen as NOT being a mental illness.
being cured of it is as silly as saying that people can be cured of homosexuality or hetrosexuality for that matter.
It is simply how they are wired.
Your belief that it can be cured is totally unfounded , (similar to your other beliefs”) In fact the more studies done the more this is re-enforced.
NOW, another simple thing you should realise , is that not all pedophiles are child molesters.
There are Millions of people around the world who live normal law abiding lives as pedophiles and simply never act out their desires , the same way there are plenty of ted haggards who are secretly gay and never act out .
Gods , or anyone elses forgiveness does nothing to change to repeat-offence nature of these people.
Now , Saying that they can be cured is like saying you could be cured of your hetrosexuality and TURNED gay by therapy…… do you understand now how illogical that is ..?
Did Judas Iscariot have “God on his side” ???
Hmmm… I was sure pedophilia was a mental illness… in fact, it’s in the DSM 4. (Check the wikipedia article).
Pedophilia is different to the many and varied forms of human sexuality (homo/hetero/bi/fetishes etc) in that it actually hurts others when pedophiles to act on how they are “wired”. Why would you want to change something unless it hurt people?
I know that people with this disorder don’t always molest kids, and it proves how strong they must be to resist hurting people despite their desires.
By cure, I mean make offenders able to manage their desires. I don’t doubt that it’s possible and has been done, similar to how anger management is done. You don’t have to “cure” people of their feelings to teach them how to stop such feelings causing harm to others. Of course, the person must WANT help in the first place.
I don’t know the specifics of how each individual person with this mental illness works… but if someone is sorry and tries their best not to do something wrong again, God will forgive them. It won’t instantly take away their desires, it’s silly to think that… but true belief in God, and love for him and for everyone else will at least give motivation to try harder not to re-offend (after all, no one wants to hurt the people they love). Whether or not it works depends on the individual, the circumstances, etc.
DSM was last produced more than a decade ago.
many things change in that time , one of them is the understanding of these types of things , most people in research of this problem support its declassification as a mental illness.
homosexuality was classified as a mental illness for a while too !
why would homosexuals NOT want to be that way …
let me think..
discrimination , by a large amount of the community , INCLUDING the church,.
beatings.
being diowned by parents..
that and many more , believe me , NO ONE would CHOOSE to be gay …. its a tough life..
The recidence rates for pedophilia are too high to warrant any sort of leniency or forgiveness.
I hope , and i would pray if it would make a difference , that if you ever have a child that they dont fall prey to a child sex offender.
Because I KNOW that forgiveness will be the last thing on your mind.
sorry a missed a bit , no one wants to hurt someone they love?
well tell that to the victims who too often are people that the kids love and who are MEANTto love them
If following the Christian ways and beinf part of that community helps you, than do what you want.
Just don’t condemn others who don’t want a part, and please don’t secretly pray and persuade them to join ‘your fun’.
Let people believe and do what they want.
Buddha, Jesus, Zombie (!), stop debating all this.
It goes round and round in circles, as you can see with these many messages.
Some prefer chai, others a latte.
Just let them be!
sorry belinda , but we accept ignorance and irrationality in no other area excpt religion.
and this has to stop.
religion intrudes on the lives of the non religious everyday , so it is RIGHT for the non believers to speak up.
part of the solution , or part of the problem choose one…
when the time comes that you have a personal stake in it , MAYBE then you will speak your mind.
say you have a child with spinal chord injuries , the church standing in the way of stem cell research is inhibiting your childs hopes of medical help….
would you still stand by and say nothing?
say nothing about the believers in a supernatural supersitious being stop human advancement.?
saying nothing is to condone their beliefs to condone ignorance leading the way…
I personally wont do it.
You skate towards thin ice ackbar, is it intentional ?
Perpetrators, collaborators, bystanders, victims: we can be clear about three of these categories. The bystander, however, is the fulcrum. We don’t usually think of history as being shaped by silence, but, as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’
And since George W Bush considers himself a good man (and a Christian) this led to the invasion of Iraq. A war which I presume you are, like myself, wholly in favour of.
Ackbar…
Perhaps I have grown up in a different time period… to me it seems everyone is a lot more open-minded to non-traditional sexualities (see Queer Eye, Scissor Sisters, the Queer Room at Monash uni), and yes, even churches (e.g. the Uniting Church). Yes, there is sadly still discrimination etc… but things are a lot better now than they were, although there’s always room for improvement.
You think that to forgive someone who does something terrible is impossible, but it is necessary to forgive… regardless of religion or belief in God. Even parents forgive people who murder or assault their children. It is the strong thing to do, it allows you to move on. Granted, you don’t have to like, trust or understand the person you forgive, but it is one step forward in a journey where so many would rather stand still.
I don’t believe in leniency in the law for pedophiles… not at all… Just that God forgives people when they are truly sorry (and to be sorry you have to regret what you’ve done and seriously want to change).
Belinda…
I think it’s great that people have the freedom to choose what they believe (or don’t believe) spiritually. I know that I can’t convert people, and I don’t expect to. People must make up their own minds on the matter. But when you believe something strongly, as myself and Ackbar do, you feel compelled to share your knowledge, especially when you feel someone you love (God) is being misrepresented, or that there is a good side of the story that isn’t being told. (After all, as I believe that people must make up their own minds, it is fair to present both sides of the argument).
I don’t approach strangers in the street… I don’t wander around to non-religious posts here on Nook and argue with people who have no interest in doing so… If Ackbar were to say “shut it, Chaos” I would.
For the record , I wouldnt tell lady to shut up , or brian , or whoever else…strong feelings make for strong debates (and sometimes arguements)
Whilst it may seem that imtrying to convert everyone , thats not the case .
what i aim for is to get people thinking , thinking about inconsistencies in their mind-set.
And for them to find out more about the things they oppose, “religious science” groups put out WRONG and outdated information that people believe because they TRUST these groups to know, and the fact is , they dont represent the facts correctly.
In the same way you wouldnt expect a holden dealer to tell you the TRUTH about FORD cars.
So , Think , Read , and then think about it more…
“In the same way you wouldnt expect a holden dealer to tell you the TRUTH about FORD cars.”
Very true of both sides…
Makes me wonder that if conventional science did find something that goes a few steps in “proving” God’s existence, would they disclose it? Would a journal run by atheists publish an article that threatened their beliefs? I would hope so, but you can’t be sure.
Yeah, it’s always good for people to examine their views… I agree.
I would rather that someone brought up as a Christian but who never thought about their beliefs convert to being an atheist after learning, inquiring and considering those beliefs (and vice versa). There is no excuse for blindly following in our wonderful free society. It says in the Bible that we must really know God on a personal level in order to be saved and accept his son’s sacrifice for us… and no less. What good is a religious faith (or lack thereof) that someone has never thought about? If people can’t think deeply and inquire about something as important as the existence of God/which God/the Bible in context, then what good are their beliefs?
i agree with your last sentiment there lady , too many people DO follow anything blindly …
but here is where we differ , you see science as an adversarial to what YOU see as the truth.
I do not.
IF , the day comes where science finds ANY evidence for a god , you can bet it will be shouted from the rooftops by scientists EVERYWHERE….
Scientists seek the truth , whereever it comes from ….
Can you imagine the accolades the first scientists to proviude EVIDENCE of the supernatural will get ?
surely a nobel prize , and a whole lot more than that !
What will happen on the day that science conclusively proves there is no god ?
what will you do then ?
There is an often repeated tale about an oxford professor who studied one particular area and had formed one solid notion of how it this area all worked , day in day out for 20 years.
Then , one day a visiting lecturer gave a presentation , which conclusively proved his whole idealogy in this area incorrect.
At the end of the presentation , the “expert” in this field walked to the front of the lecture hall and shook the lecturers hand , and thanked him.
THAT is what science is about , being happy to be proven wrong , for the advancement of the science.
again , it seems you share a common view with many teists , that science is a conspiracy ….. its simply not true.
Seriously, after all the things I’ve said you STILL think that we Christians see science as an adversary or a conspiracy? Even after I told you that I study science?
Of course science isn’t an adversary… science is a good thing when in the right hands, and by the “right hands” I don’t mean hardcore conservative creationist Christians only, I mean people interested in publishing the truth no matter what that may be or whose beliefs it may go against (be they atheists or Christians).
And, similarly to how it is hard for an atheist to get their point of view, however relevant and scientifically proven it may be, across in a Christian family, it would be hard for a Christian to get their point of view (however relevant and scientifically proven it may be) across in a field where, as you told me, 90% of everyone doesn’t believe in God. Granted, they are probably going to be a bit more open minded what with they being scientists and all, but, as you know, there will always be people who don’t want to change their beliefs in the face of proof.
And just as there are Christians with open minds, there also exists atheists with closed minds. So you are of the scientific mindset that you could be proven wrong and would embrace it… that’s a good way to be… but I can tell you that there are people who no matter what they believe or don’t believe religiously, politically or socially, just can’t stand to be wrong and would rather hide the truth than question their beliefs.
For one thing, if you know anything about science, you know that hypotheses can never be proven or disproved, only supported or not supported by experimentation/investigation. Especially something of the magnitude of “proving God’s existence/nonexistence”. After all, if God is omnipotent, he could even hide from a God-detecting ray or something.
But, if some scientist did “prove” that God didn’t exist, I wouldn’t cover my ears and hide under a rock to escape the truth. I would hear what they had to say. If the scientist’s explanation managed to explain absolutely everything that I have experienced in my life that has led me to believe in God, beyond reasonable doubt, then I’d throw down my Bible and paste up a picture of the flying spaghetti monster in my room.
What would you do if a scientist proved beyond reasonable doubt that God exists in a way that answered every question you had about Christianity and the Bible?
Lady , your comment above “if conventional science did find something that goes a few steps in “proving” God’s existence, would they disclose it? ” sounds to adversarial and like you think there may be aconspiracy…
seriously….
scientists fit the exact description you give , they are for the truth no matter what.
There may be individuals that are stead fast in whatever ideals they have , but that is the beauty of the scientific community the peer review system makes it work like a beehive ….
Hypothesis can indeed be disproven or falsified , say you hypothesise that all people on earth are christians based on interviews with a thousand people in USA.
all you need to do is find ONE NON-Christian , and your hypothesis is falsified.
Unless you want to delve into the whole “do our senses portray reality” stuff…
but the “what will you do if ….” question was a hypothetical one…..
of course , if the time ever comes that there is ANY evidence of the existence of ANY GOD i will be first to jump ship…..
It seems that stephen hawking thinks he may be close to PROVING the origins of theuniverse , self contained and governed SOLELY by science……
interesting times ahead.
Hmmm… that’s a good point about the hypothesis thing… perhaps it’s just what we’re taught at uni that they can’t be disproved. I guess what we would be told to say was that “the evidence did not support the hypothesis” rather than “the hypothesis was proved permanently wrong”… maybe it’s an error/arrogance thing? I don’t know.
“scientists fit the exact description you give , they are for the truth no matter what.”
I know what you mean, but there ARE always exceptions. And in this case, the exceptions are more likely to be in favour of atheism. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy… but people are not perfectly open minded, even if they are scientists. 10 people with 90% open minds means that between them there is one person with a 100% closed mind.
I wonder how Stephen Hawking will prove the origins of the universe… I personally figure that if you weren’t there with a video camera you can’t prove it for definite unless you have stacks of other concrete, measurable evidence… After all, isn’t science about learning by experimentation, and verifying the results of an experiment by repeating it? Theories can make great sense, and agree with all the laws of physics, but then again the theory that the earth was flat probably made perfect sense back in the days it was invented. There is always more to learn than you or I might think.
… And, who is to say that God didn’t make the big bang? Why not? He had to create the universe somehow. What better way than with a big bang?
I guess we can only wait and see what Mr Hawking has to say.
Perhaps it is like Darwin… he only became an atheist when he lost his faith after his favourite daughter died. If he had presented his theory of evolution in a Christian context (e.g. “Perhaps God did it this way!”) then maybe there wouldn’t be the extent of the evolution vs. creation argument that we see today.
Agreed on the hypothesis.
yes there are exceptions , the most notable are ones that are blatantly obvious like michael behe , he allows his theism to cloud his views on all science , but some of the views from yourself , brian ,bill , Jad and other theists seem to display a REAL belief in the scientist conspiracy to overthrow god by falsifying facts and its simply not true , the reason (micro and macro)evolution is an accepted scientific theory is because its true and supported by factual evidence.
Many creationist websites dispute this , and without any basis in fact.
But I guess trying to pick holes in scientific theory is one of the only fallbacks for them.
What do they have to replace it with ?
Nothing.
God created all , that is it.
Well good , now we can all get some sleep.
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Science is also based on OBSERVATION ladychaos , and there is plenty of evidence for the big bang and that is why it is the held as fact.,
The word THEORY has a different meaning in science than most theist understand …
Gravity is a theory , it is also a fact.
just like evolution.
There are biblical reasons why the posulated that the earth was flat back then , and we now INTERPRET the bible differently now that we know the truth , we have changed our reading of it to fit.
who is to say god didnt make the big bang ?
Well the bible itself ……
AND , the fact there is no evidence for it .
Stephen hawking believes his new ideas enable him to prove that the universe is “self contained and governed by the laws of SCIENCE alone” that is his was of saying that there was no creator.
Hawking has noted that IF time is like a train track with a start and an end , then there must be someone to START it …
obviously if the whole process can be explained in laws of physics then gods intervention(not existance) is disproven. Just like we know what causes gravity , we dont (STILL) believe it is god pushing us down do we…..
There is no need to wait to see what he said , head over to ozwebs nook and there is a link to the lecture to listen for yourself , i would be interested in your thoughts afterwards…
There are some theists , that DO believe that god used evolution.
The Pope himself said something along the lines that he is happy for science to investigate all things since the big bang , as that is the territory of science , but the before the big bang is gods territory and the moment of creation…..
which is quite mature of him…..
The universe may be self-contained and governed by the laws of science (e.g. gravity)… I wouldn’t doubt that… but I believe God created it to be that way… he created it USING science. Just because something agrees with the laws of science, it doesn’t categorically prove that God doesn’t exist… science and God are not “enemies”. Just because science may not have proof that God DOES exist (yet), it is arrogant to assume that this will never happen.
I don’t believe science is a conspiracy… I never said that. Just that it is always harder for someone to get their point of view across, however scientific it may be, when the people they are talking to don’t believe in the same thing. That’s not to say it’s impossible either… I don’t know how possible/impossible it is. But to have complete, blind, unquestioning faith in (not science itself but) the system through which science is “distributed” to the public is to ignore the fact that mistakes and prejudices exist… Yes, our peer reviewed science system is great, but is it perfect? No… nothing is.
I’ll have a listen to the lecture soon… once I’m done with the uni lectures I have to read…
Lady , the Start of our universe has always been a sticking point for creationist , a GAP if you like where they can put their GOD into.
Thats what religion does , any gaps left by science are where they stick their GOD.
This , once supported will be one less gap , And will leave very few BIG questions left over , one of the mainones is the start of life itself.
No It doesnt prove that god DOESNT exist , but it also doesnt prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesnt exist either !
It sure does make the whole DIVINE creator thing less and less probable.
No nothing is perfect , but you have to realise the sort of science that REAL science is against with creationists.
Science: there was a big bang - support- Microwave radiation throughout galaxy .
Creationist “science”- A divine creator zapped it into being - support - a book.
Science - animals evolved though billions of years - support - fossil records , DNA etc
Creationist “science” - the divine creator ZAPPED all anumals onto the planet -support : a book.